The Board Game Hut - Great Games Supported By Great Service
Dismiss Notice
Welcome to Senior Gamers!

We are a community for mature gamers who primarily play online games on PlayStation consoles (PS4, PS3, PS Vita). You can find out more in our About Us section.

If you are new to the site, why not register? By doing so and being an active member you can view the site without adverts, make posts and more. You can register here and even do so using Facebook, Twitter or Google+!

Multi Next Generation of Consoles!

Discussion in 'Hardware & Other Games' started by ColSonders, 29 Dec 2012.

?
  1. Playstation 4

    7 vote(s)
    77.8%
  2. Xbox 720

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Wii U

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Valve Steam Console

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  5. Ouya (android console)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. PC

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  7. I'm done with gaming when my current systems break.

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ColSonders

    ColSonders A.W.O.L.
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    26 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    932
    Trophy Points:
    1,524
    PSN:
    ColSonders
    I know it's early doors just yet, but wondering what people are thinking about for next generation as we're gonna start seeing hardware mostly next year.

    We've already got the Wii-U released, with both the Ouya and Steam consoles confirmed for release next year, I'd also speculate that Sony and Microsoft will bring out their next gen machines at the back end of 2013.

    I think we can write off the Wii-U and the Ouya as casual gaming systems, not to be taken seriously and neither of which are likely to get AAA title support from the big games developers, though time will tell.

    It's gonna be a very tough decision for me, normally I would have said I'll just get all the good ones but finances are currently dictating that i'll struggle to buy one of these let alone three.

    From what I can tell there will be three main contenders next generation, Sony, Microsoft and Valve.

    All three of these are going with very straight forward powerPC architecture, nothing new for Microsoft there, but a change of heart from Sony after developers complaining about the difficulty of making games early in the PS3's history.

    The console by Valve is massively tempting, from what I can tell it's going to immediately have the huge back catalogue of games available on Steam. The issues I can foresee is that you'll be playing as a console gamer against PC gamers, with the differences between mouse and control pad potentially causing problems. The other issue is that EA seem to be boycotting the Steam service and trying to compete using their Origin service....meaning a lot of our favourite games are unlikely to appear on this system if things remain as they are, games such as Need For Speed and Battlefield.

    The other two companies are likely to continue with what they are doing, possibly with UI improvements/changes to media that could be fairly drastic, particularly Microsoft who I think personally did a very bad job of media playback support with their single-mindedness. Similarly I feel that Sony did a bad job of their networking and have failed on the promise of competing with xbox live with their console that was built from the ground up with networking in mind. I also feel the changes they have made to the PSN store have been less than positive.

    So, currently my feeling is to give Microsoft a run on the next generation, they seem to have a superior online service which is what matters to me, hopefully they will considerably improve usability of media streaming and support systems that aren't running Windows so that those of us with dedicated NAS systems and Macs will be happy.

    If Valve manage to come to an agreement with EA (unlikely given EA's pure greed) then the Steam based console is a no-brainer to me, cheaper games, more likely to get updated hardware on a more regular basis and games that are written for PC and can therefore just have the graphics output scaled back for older hardware...it'll be like gaming on a relatively powerful PC gaming rig, but without any of the hassles!
     
  2. Plaxinator

    Plaxinator Wino extraordinaire
    Staff Member Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    30 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    3,048
    Likes Received:
    2,252
    Trophy Points:
    1,790
    PSN:
    Plaxinator
    I'm extremely unlikely to be running out and getting any of the new consoles any time soon as I think there is far too much life left in the PS3 yet. I'll probably hang fire and see what they all turn out like and wait for prices to drop. From the choices available though I'd probably go PS4 and Steam/Valve
     
  3. Macca72-

    Macca72- Newbie Gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    5 Nov 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    PSN:
    Macca72-
    I will buy the puss4, but I will wait for a couple of years after release date. I bought an Xbox360 on release(2 weeks after release to be exact) and had nothing but bother, so I can't see me ever purchasing another Xbox, the way I was treated by the Microsoft repair service, and the robots who took my calls completely pissed me off. Every time my Xbox made a noise of any sort during game play I thought ''here we go again'' Completely ruined any enjoyment I had at the start of this generation. So there will be no Xbox of any form sitting under my TV.
    This is actually my 2nd PS3, my ''fat'' one broke down after 2 years of constant gaming. The difference between my PS3 breaking down and my Xbox breaking down was ~ I was shocked when my PS3 broke down.
    There's loads of life left in the PS3, and enough games that I haven't played to keep me busy for quite a few years. I have heard a lot of people saying that Xbox Live is a far superior service to PS Network, I don't know. My Xbox never worked long enough for me to find out. Cross game chat is the usual argument that is wheeled out on every opportunity.
     
  4. ColSonders

    ColSonders A.W.O.L.
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    26 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    932
    Trophy Points:
    1,524
    PSN:
    ColSonders
    I disagree about the life left in the PS3, i've thought it's struggled the last year and the consoles have been holding games back graphically....not really bothered about all the other "innovative" crap, that's just gimmicks as far as i'm concerned. I do feel that it's now time for an upgrade of the hardware to allow console gaming to get back on form graphically to what the games developers are able to produce. That's not to say the PS3 is dead in the water at the end of next year or whenever the PS4 does land, i'm sure it'll be supported for a few more years yet, but we've almost certainly seen the limit of it's graphics capability.

    As for the difference in Xbox and Playstation in terms of their online services, Live has more than just cross game chat, though that on the face of it is one of the biggest differences, but the VOIP system is handled in a completely different manner which is what allows their networking to work so much better as they have a dedicated server infrastructure in place for comms that allows more bandwidth for gaming netcode.

    Another big difference is that Microsoft have a set tick list of features that a game must have for it to be released, Sony say this is restrictive to the games developers and that it stifles creativity, and as much as I agree with the sentiment, the end result is far more commonality of online features on xbox titles, Playstation games now generally follow suit as the independent developers simply abide by Microsofts standards and then leave it like that for the Playstation.

    It's a nice thought that since Sony are moving to a far simpler system architecture for their next system that it puts the systems on a level playing field, but I still feel that online gaming with voice comms will be better on the next xbox, I think the valve system is more likely to have regular hardware updates, I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up a new system getting released every other year or even every year. I'm not sure Sony are going to have anything that truly gives them a unique selling point. Free online gaming service? I'm not even convinced that'll stay free, but it's unlikely to be any better than current gen, which lacks a little compared to it's competition. I'd like to hope they again trump the competition in terms of media playback...but I have a PS3 already, not sure it'll bring anything new. One of the biggest plus points of the PS3 has been system stability, no doubt about this at all, but will that necessarily apply to the next gen consoles? I fear not since everyone seems to be going to very similar hardware.

    If Sony turn around and say they're gonna have a premium online service that caters for VOIP with proper servers much like xbox Live...and with it the inevitable cross game chat and monthly fee then it'd certainly put Sony back in the running for my cash, but unless they do this it's gonna take some serious innovation (not gimmicks though) to sway me. The only big thing that the xbox fanboys aren't gonna be able to keep laughing at playstation owners about is the bugs that only appear in the playstation versions of games as the architecture should mean the developers have essentially identical versions of games on all systems.
     
  5. yinkin

    yinkin Serious Gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    2 Jul 2012
    Messages:
    762
    Likes Received:
    476
    Trophy Points:
    1,104
    PSN:
    yinkin
    i dont want to pay to play online, so if sony keep it free then thats where I am. For me their service is mostly adequate. I am in no rush to move on yet, ps3 is still going great, sure graphics will get bette , but what else , current gen tells us it will be an endless loop of cookie cutter retreads and rehashed franchise games that mostly fill the shelves. Forgive me if I dont rush to buy a new black box.
     
  6. Macca72-

    Macca72- Newbie Gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    5 Nov 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    PSN:
    Macca72-
    Hi ColSonders.
    The way I play games is like this ~ I buy a game as cheap as I can get it, play it for 10 or 15 hours over 2 weeks or so, finish it, give it to my nephew then move onto something else. I never really got interested in the Online multiplayer side of gaming. I played Killzone 2 online for a few months and that's about that.
    Who do you think has produced the best exclusive games this generation?
    What games(single player campaign) can I not play on the Puss3 that would make me want to go and buy an Xbox360?
    What's your views on the Kinect v Move? Do you play any Kinect games?
     
  7. Slaine

    Slaine Serious Gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,693
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Trophy Points:
    1,355
    PSN:
    Torquemada
    I think a better question would be what system is better to play games on. Some of the installs and patches on the PS3 have been a joke, and some of the games have not been ported very well at all, with corrupting game saves and frequent freezing. Admittedly some of these differences are minor, and unless you saw the 360 version up & running you would feel aggrieved. Skyrim is a classic example here. As for the games, what about Halo, Gears Of War, Forza, Fable, Crackdown, Left For Dead etc etc.

    Developers were all in agreement that the PS3 is very hard to program for, and porting from system to system isnt as straight forward as it was last generation.

    Ive got Move and Kinect. Kinect is far superior to Move in terms of overall abilities (facial recognition, voice control, UI controls), and playing Mass Effect or Skyrim with voice controls on is something else. I do like both, but theres no denying theyre made to appeal to the younger market. Saying that, I have found a few gems on Kinect like Fable The Journey and Kinect Star Wars which are pretty good. I'd have to say that in terms of accuracy in shooting, then I'm on the side of Move. It does seem to be more precise using a big glowing ball instead of your hand. But both Move & Kinect suffer from shovelware, and there is a lot of shit out for both of these which doesnt do it any favours.

    Anyway, as for what system I get next will not be determined by who releases first. Im going to be hard pressed to get both on release (either PS4 or Xbox 720). Backwards compatability, retention of achievements/trophies & friends, are both prerequisites. I imagine theyll both have a similar spec under the hood, as has this generation, so price will be a big factor. Sonys pricing strategy, along with the continual delays in Europe for anything, means its highly probable I'll get the Xbox 720 over the PS4. I will get a PS4, but when the price is right. Ive thoroughly enjoyed the Killzones, Uncharteds, Journey etc etc, and I'd hate to miss out on the next generation versions of these, along with all my new Senior friends too :thumbup:
     
  8. ColSonders

    ColSonders A.W.O.L.
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    26 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    932
    Trophy Points:
    1,524
    PSN:
    ColSonders
    Then in my opinion the PS3 was the better console as it was less likely to break and the online features basically don't matter if you're not using them and the PS3 has the better feature set (HDMI,gigabit LAN, wifi, batteries in the controller) from the off.

    I don't particularly rate either systems exclusives very highly...controversially. So that doesn't even come into it for me. Honestly though the single best two exclusives that I recall are the first Uncharted and the first Crackdown, both fine games, neither of which i'd be all that bothered about missing out on.

    Honestly I couldn't tell you, I don't really play much in the way of single player games, the only PS3 game I have that is single player and exclusive that I would say you would be missing out on is Shadow Of The Colossus, but that's a PS2 HD remake and certainly not worth getting a console for.

    Gimmicks.
    I've not actually used the Kinikt as I've not had an Xbox since that was released, though I've heard very good things about it. For serious game application both suffer from inaccuracy, as Slaine has pointed out the Kinikt isn't as accurate for shooters as the Move (I mostly only play shooters) and I had the Move with Killzone, had the huge gun attachment thingy and honestly it worked quite well with Killzone, it was fun, but you couldn't compete seriously against control pad users and the very same system implemented into Socom Special Forces was an absolute joke.


    For me I play very little in the way of exclusive titles anyway, both systems have them, but in my opinion the best games on these systems are cross platform anyway and with the increase in costs of games, with all the forced DLC to allow you to keep up with things and continue to play with your buddies I basically buy very few games these days, so I tend to stick to two or three of the best games a year, always online games and with any luck always gonna give me a lot of play.

    I can see me getting the PS4, but I'll likely get the Xbox on or around launch and have that as my main console to see what they can do graphically and i'll possibly pick up a PS4 when the price comes down. I suppose if the PS4 was to be considerably cheaper than the Xbox720 and released months before then I may not be able to wait until the xbox release. But I imagine price tags will be around the £500 mark for these consoles on launch, retaining that price tag for 6 months to a year. Currently i'd expect their releases to be similar in terms of timing, but as Slaine pointed out, Sony have a tendancy to release later for the PAL territories, leaving people who have the money and the want for a next generation system with less to choose from.
     
  9. Plaxinator

    Plaxinator Wino extraordinaire
    Staff Member Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    30 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    3,048
    Likes Received:
    2,252
    Trophy Points:
    1,790
    PSN:
    Plaxinator
    All I can say is that if I'm to get another Xbox they need to do something about that bloody spamathon of a dash. Also I like using my consoles for watching media on. The Xbox is shit. Even with pins you have to trawl through a load of crap to play your avi files from USB and then after you've watched that file you can't delete it on the Xbox. So I stick to the PS3 for that.

    I've not really noticed a difference in online play between the PS3 and Xbox (and I have BF3 on both). The only good thing about the xbox is the chat feature. You can talk to your friends who are playing other games of who are on the other team. I had a great laugh one time playing BFCB2 with a mate on the other side and getting his dog tags all the time (so I got the Eu Tu Brute achievement legit). So much more fun taunting them over voice comms.

    At the end of the day we shall have to wait and see. Exciting isn't it lol.
     
  10. Macca72-

    Macca72- Newbie Gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    5 Nov 2012
    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    PSN:
    Macca72-
    Thanks ColSonders and Slane for your replies. I think that the Playstation 4 needs to come bundled with a good quality headset for those who want to play online. Trophy support is a must, and it would be nice if trophies earned on the PS3 carried over.
    I know what you mean about games on the PS3 not running properly Slaine, Area 51 was about the worst experience I had on any console, it was just unplayable.
    I have seen clips of Gears of War, and it looks interesting, but not interesting enough to make me want to forget about how microsoft treated me when I owned the 360. The last game I played on the 360 was Halo3 and it didn't do a lot for me. I watched a couple of levels of Halo4 on YouTube and wasn't impressed enough to make me want to play it, I was eager to play it when it was released, I was even going to get a loan of a 360(and hope it didn't break down whilst I had it) just to play it, but as I said it didn't look up to much (graphics, enemy AI or gameplay).
     
  11. Acegadgets

    Acegadgets Not so serious gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    28 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,357
    Likes Received:
    528
    Trophy Points:
    1,395
    PSN:
    Acegadgets
    I just watched a video on how to build a steam box. Basically it was a gaming PC on a budget of £300 . The quality of graphics and the prices of games on steam may entice me to biuld my own gaming PC next year.( Or i should say this year).
     
  12. ColSonders

    ColSonders A.W.O.L.
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    26 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    932
    Trophy Points:
    1,524
    PSN:
    ColSonders

    Does that assume you already have half the kit?

    You got a linky?

    That's a very good price, something I would perhaps consider myself, particularly if EA and Valve cut a deal to allow EA games to be sold on Steam for full price (EA don't want their games sold at discounted rates, hence no longer supporting steam)

    edit* scratch that, found the video, it's one of my favourite youtubers.



    The system is a standard sized form factor, potentially a little on the large size, but has a pretty decent spec and hooks straight to your TV, output looks like it would be restricted more by your TV than the gaming system.

    Price doesn't include control items (keyboard, mouse, controller) or Operating System. And you'd possibly want to add a sound card if you have a headset such as the Sharkoon X-Tatic Digitals.

    Also worth noting he ordered the lot from Scan.co.uk who I seriously can't recommend enough, but they are certainly not the cheapest online retailer for PC components.
     
  13. Jkrohn1

    Jkrohn1 5P4M 80T
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    3,649
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    1,265
    PSN:
    JKrohn1
    My craptop is done and was considering building a PC again but with the likes of steam which I already have a lot of games for. It would probably stop me playing console games. With the likes of minecraft and Day z already being so good it a wonder I haven't jumped back over to a PC. If this steam box is a console style pc which is upgradable there would be no need to buy another console.
    If i was gonna get any, and going from past experience, I would have to go PS4. If the specs for the steam box is as good as I expect I might be swinging that way.
     
  14. DarthRaiden666

    DarthRaiden666 Warlock, Jedi, Sith... #66 PNMotorsport
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    663
    Likes Received:
    194
    Trophy Points:
    954
    PSN:
    Darth_Raiden
    Depending on price is whether I'll get the new Xbox or PS4.

    Also it depends on which Sony console, PS3 or PS4 will get GT6, hoping PS3.

    Theres still loads of life left in the PS3, and I read somewhere, think CVG, that Sony has finally stopped shipping PS2s to Japan, 13 years after launch.

    The 360 is at its end, so I guess the new Xbox will be out 1st.
     
  15. ColSonders

    ColSonders A.W.O.L.
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    26 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    932
    Trophy Points:
    1,524
    PSN:
    ColSonders
    I'd be surprised if there's any PS3's that still work by the time GT6 gets released.
     
  16. Spruijt

    Spruijt Real men wear clogs
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    742
    Trophy Points:
    1,315
    PSN:
    Spruijt
    GT6 will be released for PS4 surely. And that console won't be released before 2014.
     
  17. HERMAN_JELMET

    HERMAN_JELMET Meatbag
    Staff Member Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Trophy Points:
    1,620
    PSN:
    HERMAN_JELMET
    I've been playing a lot on my Xbox lately and I'm surprised to say that I wish I'd have got one instead of a PS3, The games seem to run so much better and work straight out of the box.
    I'm looking to get the next Xbox as I don't see how Sony can justify another console seeing as they still haven't made any profit on the PS3, How many times would you throw money into a project with little or no return? I think Sony will call It quits If the next Playstation goes the same way as the PS3 did, And I think It will, It'll release far too late to be any sort of competition for Microsoft.
     
  18. Jkrohn1

    Jkrohn1 5P4M 80T
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    3,649
    Likes Received:
    428
    Trophy Points:
    1,265
    PSN:
    JKrohn1
    Herman after several you would change your mind like I did. Microsoft had built a great system with better performance then the ps3 but very similar spec (shared memory on the 360 gives it better performance). I think the OS for xbox is better but I prefer the games on ps3. If Sony pull there fingers out this time around and make a great OS that works and use a faster reading Blu ray and a big cache eliminating the games install, i think they will be onto a winner.

    I noticed over the holidays when playing on my ps3 there are more kids on I'm assuming this is a price thing as the ps3 isn't as expensive as it used to be. This is one of the main reasons I like the ps3 there wasn't too many kids playing and singing down your headset :(

    Another downside of this gens playstation is developers hate working with it, the likes of Skyrim is fooshed due to hardware issues. I loved Skyrim but with the constant freezing (hardware issues) and quests becoming uncompletable (devs fault) I had no choice but to call it a day.

    I hope this time around devs stop releasing half arsed games that require constant patching just to get them playable.
     
  19. HERMAN_JELMET

    HERMAN_JELMET Meatbag
    Staff Member Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,676
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Trophy Points:
    1,620
    PSN:
    HERMAN_JELMET
    It was Skyrim that killed my PS3 HDD, I'm 75hours In on my Xbox and It's only crashed 3 times. I think the quality issues with the 360 were due to them rushing out the console before the PS3, I don't think that'll happen this time.
     
  20. Slaine

    Slaine Serious Gamer
    Senior Citizen

    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Messages:
    2,693
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Trophy Points:
    1,355
    PSN:
    Torquemada
    I think a line can be drawn in the sand with the last generation of consoles. They both sufferred from a multitude of critical failures (YLOD and RROD), and Im sure lessons were learnt. I cant see either one wanting to lose any credibility from being a producer of unreliable hardware again, and Im sure Sony are going to ensure their console is developer friendly this time too. Its for these reasons that I dont think any of us should judge either Sony or Microsoft too harshly on their upcoming consoles, because I truly believe they will be significantly different and better in every way. Developers wont baulk at the extra processing power, but thats not going to ensure success here, and pretty much everyone acknowledges this fact. Innovation will be key here.

    The secret to the PS2 success (despite being the least powerful console at the time, with after-sale tacked on network features) was its dvd playback. Its often been cited that the PS2 was instrumental in the success of the dvd. I'd say its more of the case that it put an affordable dvd player under the tv. DVD was always assured of success as people were tired of video. They were big & bulky, the quality deteriorated quickly, messing around with the tracking was always a pain. How cool was it when we learned that there was a new media available that only showed signs of deterioration after 1000 views, and allowed you to jump instantly in to any part of a film, and the quality far surpassed anything on VHS. I dont think the PS3 was as successful this time round because of a couple of factors......
    1/ Noone was ready to replace their entire film collection again, as the quality is still more than acceptable on DVD
    2/ Blu-rays and their respective players were just too expensive
    3/ Blu-ray brought nothing to the PS3 other than large installs & headaches (as the PS3 couldnt read the required data fast enough from the disc)

    Im not saying blu ray isnt a success story, because it is. Its here to stay. But theres no denying its not the revolution that DVD was. I dont think 3D brought much to the table either. Very niche and expensive, and probably explains why every 3D blu ray comes bundled with a standard blu ray edition, to encourage people to make the switch.

    One thing I will say is do not underestimate Microsoft. There is no denying that Microsoft has the superior online platform. Yes you have to pay for it, but like anything in life if you want cheap dont expect the same quality. Dont get me wrong, Im not a huge advocate of Xbox Gold membership, and I begrudge paying it. Thankfully for the last 3 years I have consistently paid less that £28 a year, which makes it more of any easier pill to swallow. But I would never be without it either.

    If the next generation comes along and all it is is more HDD space and faster processors, I will be severely disappointed. I cant see this happening as I said earlier, because I for one would be just as happy to play the PS3 port of the PS4 game, choosing to forgoe the "next generation". And I think this rings true for a lot of people. Sony & Microsoft have got to do something spectacular to get us all enthused. I think they will deliver, and Im dying to see what it is.

    Things that frighten me are the price of the consoles and the games, and latest alarming bit of gossip on the net about Sonywith regards to their latest patent. I think Sony will suffer greatly if they use this anti-2nd hand software on their PS4. To be the only console that cant play used games will be severely detrimental to them, and I cant believe theyve posted a patent on this. And dont forget, the definition of "used" means you wouldnt be able to play your sons game, or on the other PS4 you have upstairs. You really would be limited to just playing it on the one console. And say if you get the YLOD???? Does this mean your game wont play on a new console owned by you, or will it be linked to your PSN id??? The Vita does this to some extent by denying you the ability to play a game under your own profile. If you borrow a game, you have to wipe the entire progress of the owner before you can use it with your own PSN id. Thankfully its only limited to a few titles, as most developers dont seem to have bothered with this capability. But its got to have had an effect on sales.

    The Wii-U has been heavily criticised for this already. If you buy a digital download, it is locked to that console (not account), and can never be downloaded to anything different. So if your Wii-U packs up, all your digitally downloaded games are lost for all time.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice